Windows 10 upgrade requires restart, not shut down.

This has happened to me twice now, with 2 separate Win10 upgrades.

On both occasions it started when, on shutdown I was asked to "install updates and shut down" instead of the normal "Shutdown". Over several days, this happened every time I shut down, until I eventually decided something was wrong and went to Windows Update. There it tells you the PC needs to be restarted to install updates. If you click on the Restart option there, the updates are installed.

What does that restart do that isn't done with Shut down and reboot?

BTW, as of the latest update, Cortana no longer finds "Windows update". Instead it offers "Check for updates" which takes you to Settings > Windows Update! WTF?

And, am I the only one who finds the M$'s unsuccessful attempts to get rid of Control Panel (starting with Win8) a waste of time and a great annoyance? It's got to the point where Cortana is the only way to find out where each setting is hidden. I have resorted to put a shortcut to Control Panel on my desktop. That way I have a simple way to access to most settings.
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hdhondtAsked:
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
1. It probably does tell you every time but the message may go away. At worst, it will tell you when you try to restart. Windows 7 was like this as well. I look in Updates to see.

2. When Restart is presented to me, it works all the time on all machines. I am not sure what is happening with you. Windows loses focus maybe.

3. It is possible to shut down and not do some updates. I have seen this happen. Then they have to done again. I have learned (by watching this) to Restart when requested and not shut down. Works better.

4. Same as 3 above. The remaining updates will normally happen when you start up. If you forgot and are in a hurry, this can slow you down. I always Restart now when requested and shut down only when updates are complete.

5. I was thinking of this as a test (not every machine) until you work out an approach.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Windows 10 will normally ask for a restart and if the update is big it will restart and then go to the blue screen "Updating your computer do not turn off".  If you shut it down it will do half and then the other half (that I just described) when you start up. Best to either let your computer run overnight and it will be good in the morning or else do it manually like I do.

Windows 7 is now starting to do the same thing.

What does that restart do that isn't done with Shut down and reboot?  <-- As noted above, restart does the complete update.
 
Cortana ...  offers to "Check for updates" which takes you to Settings > Windows Update  <-- Normal. That is where I find updates anyway.

Control Panel is still there and works. Some newer settings are better done in Settings now. I use both with equal aplomb. I do not use Cortana to search Settings - I open Settings and use the Search window there. It seems (to me at least) to make more sense this way.

Overall, I manage Updates and Defender within Settings and I restart when it says I need to. I normally check this in the evening and never when working. I restart and let it complete.  The V1709 update is taking from an hour and a bit to two hours and more. It appears to have made changes to V1703.

I find it all easy to use but it is different, so I changed.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
If you shut it down it will do half and then the other half (that I just described) when you start up
For these 2 updates it looks as if only the first part worked. A restart was required to do both, but I was not told that. All I was told was that instead of shutting down it would install updates and then shut down. If a restart is essential, that should be made clear.

And why only those 2 updates? I now have Version 10.0.16299 Build 16299. I don't know which version required the first restart, but every other update has worked fine by just shutting down in the evening and restarting in the morning. Nothing told me these 2 updates were different from all the others.

Re Cortana. Until this release it found "Windows Update". It still should, as that is an entry in Settings. Why would it offer "Check for Updates" instead, which is only a button on the Windows Update screen?

I find Windows Settings horrible. For example, try going to Printer Properties. Other things in Settings still take you right back to Control Panel. For years now, M$ have been trying to replace Control Panel, bit by bit, with Settings and they still have not managed to finish it. Perhaps it's time to admit defeat and go back to Control Panel? As far as I know all settings can still be made in Control Panel.
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arnoldCommented:
At times, updates have to be installed sequentially, in such a case, without a restart that completes the first update (covered by John).
The other you migh misinterpret two separate and distinct issues.
I.e. You installed the recent creator update, 17-11, the system gets and I stalls two sevurity updates. Upon reboot it finds there are two additional sevurity updates. When you shutdown, on restart the prior two updates are completed, two new updates are now do.

Use the system update, view history and it will reflect which updates were installed on which date.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
If a restart is essential, that should be made clear.   <-- Perhaps over time they will do a complete restart in these cases before shutting down.

And why only those 2 updates?   <-- There was an out-of-band update that came out on Friday Dec. 1 with a couple of updates. I think it was a bug fix for V1709. It required a complete restart before shutting down.

I cannot address your preferences. Settings is working fine for me and what I forgot I put in the search window.

With respect to updates, I have learned to restart on my own and not do it via shut down. We are having our clients leave machines on but logged off. That accomplishes the same objective.
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Jackie ManCommented:
On both occasions it started when, on shutdown I was asked to "install updates and shut down" instead of the normal "Shutdown".

What is the difference between asking to "install updates and shut down" and the normal "Shutdown"?

"install updates and shut down" means that the updates have been downloaded and they will be installed before shut down whereas the normal "shut down" means the updates have been installed already and the OS will do configuration of the updates on next restart.

What are the exact problems of "install updates and shut down"?
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
@ Arnold

Update History only shows the following:

Feature update to Windows 10, version 1709
Successfully installed on ‎04/‎12/‎2017

Security update for Adobe Flash Player (KB4048961)
Successfully installed on ‎05/‎12/‎2017

Update for Windows 10 version 1709 (KB4041994)
Successfully installed on ‎05/‎12/‎2017

Note: the last 2 show as links, but the link to KB4041994 is broken...

I'm pretty certain it's the 5/12 updates that required a Restart. On the other hand, as restart took a looong time, it may have been the feature update that did it. The previous funny one was early this year. That time it took me almost a week before I realised I was getting "install updates and shut down" far too often. This time it took me only a couple of shutdowns.

@Jackie

"install updates and shut down" only shows up when there are updates to install; at all other times "Shut down" is the default. As I stated in my question, the problem is that "install updates and shut down" sometimes does not work; instead I have to go to Windows Update and restart there. Next time it happens I'll try a normal restart, as John suggested.

But, my question remains: does anyone know WHY Win10 is behaving in this inconsistent way? Why does it not say a restart is required instead of a shutdown? After all, any shutdown is followed (possibly next day) by another boot.
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arnoldCommented:
There are several updates that are due for install 1711
Check under your update settings advanced  see which branch your system is setup for
Targeted or non business.
There are two branches one updates on a frequency suitable for a business the other is updated more frequently..
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
There are only 2 tick boxes under Settings > Advanced Options

The first only is to allow updates for other M$ products at the same time as Windows. The 2nd will download updates even over metered connection. Under "Delivery optimisation" I can set Windows to allow downloads to/from other PCs. I don't see anything about "targeted" or "non-business".
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Jackie ManCommented:
Wait so long means that Windows is trying again and again to solve a driver or installed applications problem.

Are you having a NIVIDA GPU?

What is the antivirus / Internet security software installed? You need to contact the software developer to obtain the latest version of antivirus / Internet security software. Or you just remove them before you try another windows update.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
@Jackie

Yes, I have an NVIDIA GPU.
Antivirus/Firewall is ZoneAlarm. The latest version is installed.
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Jackie ManCommented:
You need to manually disable NVIDIA GPU in Device Manager before you attempt an "install updates and shut down".
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
Well, I'll try that next time this problem comes up. Might be a while, though...
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
Win10 strikes again!

For the first time that I've noticed, a little box popped up on the Taskbar telling me Win10 needs help with an upgrade. It gave me the option of restating now or later. I clicked on "Restart Now", the box disappeared, and nothing else happened - at least not until I'm writing this message.

@Jackie. I won't restart manually. Instead I'll first see if the "Install updates and shutdown" option keeps popping up. If it does I'll disable NVIDIA. If install updates works normally, then I'm back to waiting for next time.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
Win10 only gave me a normal "Shutdown".

I checked Windows Update and there are NO new updates available; the list is still exactly the same as in my comment a42395066. But it does say they are "available" and "Awaiting restart". So I suppose I'll have to do it Win10's way. Here goes.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
OK, a restart did the job. But I'm still no closer to understanding why Win10's behaviour is so different from one upgrade to the next. Win7 certainly never behaved like this.

On a side note, lately I've been typing "update" into Cortana to get to Windows Update. Immediately after the restart, Cortana offered me only "Settings". Trying it again later, it again suggests "Check for updates". Great consistency! I know both get me where I want, but a more casual user may be flummoxed.
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Jackie ManCommented:
Actually, the hang in Windows update should be caused by driver incompatibility.

For Windows 10, whenever there is a major update which requires "install updates and shut down", the OS will check drivers of all devices for compatibility and force the update the Microsft versions of the drivers to replace any installed version of drivers from the OEM manufacturers.

Such force update of the drivers will have conflicts and made the update a failure.

I do not know why and it was my experience of updating a new Lenovo notebook with both INTEL and NVIDIA GPUs.

 "install updates and shut down" for 1709 failed more than 5 times and I decided to google for a workaround and found out the device driver should be the culprit after reading many forum postings.

Google keywords: intel microsoft nvidia windows 10 1709 site:answers.microsoft.com

Then, I disabled NVIDIA GPU and the 1709 update finished in about an hour.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
But this time it did not give me the option to "install updates and shut down". I had to go to Windows Update and restart from there. I did not try a normal restart, but a normal shutdown did not do the update.
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Jackie ManCommented:
But this time it did not give me the option to "install updates and shut down". I had to go to Windows Update and restart from there.

It means the updates you saw this time are not a major one.
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nobusCommented:
were both pc's running the same win 7?  32 / 64 bit, and same SP1 + updates ?
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
were both pc's running the same win 7?  32 / 64 bit, and same SP1 + updates
???  1 PC, Win10

@Jackie
Then why did it pop up a message saying it needed my help, with buttons to Restart Now or Restart Later? And why did clicking Restart Now not achieve anything at all, not even a restart?

However, you may have a point about NVIDIA. When I powered up just now, my screen colours were ghastly. Going to the NVIDIA control panel, changing colour settings and then putting them back to the original settings fixed that.
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Jackie ManCommented:
Then why did it pop up a message saying it needed my help, with buttons to Restart Now or Restart Later?

It means it was just a minor update which does not require install update and shut down.

And why did clicking Restart Now not achieve anything at all, not even a restart?

Restart is to take effect of the update and not to install the update.

In short, if you do not see "install update and shut down" after doing a Windows update, it means that the update has been installed already.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
In short, if you do not see "install update and shut down" after doing a Windows update, it means that the update has been installed already.
The update was not installed already: Windows Update still showed it as waiting for a Restart.

Anyway, that just gets me back to my original question: why does "install update and shut down" sometimes not work, and REQUIRE a restart from Windows Update? And, remember, this time there was no "install update and shut down", but the restart from Windows Update did the job anyway. And, why did the Restart Now button not do anything at all?

It seems that no matter what I try, next time around Win10 will behave differently. It simply is not consistent, and I have yet to find a reason why.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
You might make a new Admin Windows User Profile (Account). Start up in that new account and see if the computer behaves properly.
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Jackie ManCommented:
The update was not installed already: Windows Update still showed it as waiting for a Restart.

The above message actually means the update has been installed and you need to restart the computer to apply the update into the OS as there are system files in the process list which have been updated but they will only be running after the restart.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
My problem is with the inconsistency: it seems as if Win10 behaves differently for every update. I there are updates waiting for a restart:

1. Why does it not tell me every time?
2. When it does pop up a box offering Restart Now, why does it not restart when I click the button?
3. Why does a normal shutdown/powerup not do the same as a restart from Windows Update?
4. Why does "install updates and shutdown" sometimes not install the updates?

@John Hurst that would mean I have to log in to that account every time, for an indefinite time, to see how it will behave with future updates. Not very satisfactory, Remember that, most of the time updates are properly installed, and the installation is triggered by "Install updates and shutdown" - except on those 2 occasions when that does not work - and this last time when I was offered a useless Restart Now button.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
One thing we do is ask clients to leave machines running, logged off, overnight on Patch Tuesday. Machines update and restart ready for morning.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
There is only 1 machine, mine.

I feel the best thing I can do is what you suggested: check Windows Update from time to time and restart from there when there are updates waiting. So I'll force my own consistency, instead of relying on Windows.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
For my own machines, I go to Updates and update around dinner time Patch Tuesday evening. For the most part, that gets update done with little fuss.
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Jackie ManCommented:
1. Why does it not tell me every time?

Not all updates require a restart.

To draw an analogy, some HP printers requires to restart for doing alignment after changing ink cartridges.

2. When it does pop up a box offering
Restart Now, why does it not restart when I click the button?

The pop up is a notification only.

It is just like a message in LCD panel of a printer.

3. Why does a normal shutdown/powerup not do the same as a restart from Windows Update?

Update can be a lengthy process. If you do not see the pop up and you do not check the progress bar in Windows Update UI and click the normal shut down / restart in the UI, the update might have not yet finished and you need to redo the update.

It is just like asking a lady who is doing makeup (lengthy process) to get out from washroom immediately (click normal restart / shut down), the makeup has not yet been finished and she has to redo the makeup (redo the update).

4. Why does "install updates and shutdown" sometimes not install the updates?

The update cannot complete due to driver or application problem. Nvidia GPU is the example.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Our two answers are largely the same. I would note that (other than Windows Defender) 7 or 8 out of 10 Windows 10 Updates need restarting upon completion.
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Jackie ManCommented:
Agreed.

To explain in a layman term is an interesting task.

Why does "install updates and shutdown" sometimes not install the updates?

In such case, you will see an error in Event Viewer.
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
In such case, you will see an error in Event Viewer.
Good point. Ill keep that in mind for next time.

And BTW, Cortana did it again. I just searched for "Update" and got Settings. I opened Settings (but did not click on Update & Security), and searched for "Update" again. This time it gave me "Check for updates".So Cortana is consistently inconsistent.

I did this on the advice of John to schedule automatic restarts for any updates. However, all restart options are greyed out. So I'm back to what I think is my only remaining option: regularly check to see if any updates are waiting for a manual restart.
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Jackie ManCommented:
If you have no further question, please do a favour to close this question.

Thanks!
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nobusCommented:
i feel there should be a kind of "watchdog instance" to check on the quality of what is put on the market
right now MS - and everybody else do what they want - good, bad, with problems, or without on PC's and software
there is no control, - nothing
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hdhondtAuthor Commented:
Win10 is nowhere near as consistent as earlier versions. Hence manually checking whether a Restart id needed, and possibly disabling NVIDIA for it seem to be my best options.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Thanks for the update.
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