Has anyone put together a entry level server with 4Kn drives?

Curious as to your configuration
LVL 15
LockDown32OwnerAsked:
Who is Participating?
 
andyalderConnect With a Mentor Commented:
HPE Smart Array controllers support them in 512e mode, but the quickspecs have the proviso: "SAS 512e drives are intended for servers and storage solutions that are 4K aligned..."
0
 
PowerEdgeTechConnect With a Mentor IT ConsultantCommented:
I have a couple in a RAID  1 on a Dell PowerEdge  R430 with a PERC H730 (which is the first in the Dell PERC family to support native 4k). The controller you use is key.
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
This is what is kind of blowing my mind. I asked about 4Kn drives about a month ago and got very few responses. When I researched them it appears that they came out in 2009, became popular in 2010 and went mainstream in 2011. They forgot to mention on what planet.......

   I put one together about two months ago and used 4Kn because I didn't want to be accused of using old technology but what I am finding out is that they really haven't been universally accepted. I had Lenovo help me configure a server just yesterday. I looked at the drives and they were 512n. The rep said I could get 4Kn on the newest models only. "Mainstream"?

   I though UEFI was slow to be accepted...... speaking of which I used a Intel Server Board and an Adaptec 8405. Had to put it in UEFI mode to work. Kind of concerned me all the way around. Thinking about going back to 512n LOL.
0
Improve Your Query Performance Tuning

In this FREE six-day email course, you'll learn from Janis Griffin, Database Performance Evangelist. She'll teach 12 steps that you can use to optimize your queries as much as possible and see measurable results in your work. Get started today!

 
PowerEdgeTechConnect With a Mentor IT ConsultantCommented:
"Native" 4k will become the standard, but the rollout has been sitting in a backward-compatible version (512e) for years while we wait for the hardware and operating systems to integrate and refine support into their products.
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
The roll out has been happening since 2009 :) Talk about a slow roll out LOL! 512e is just an interim step to allow manufacturers the ability to produce 4Kn without retooling and yet maintain 512n compatibility. The native 4Kn seems to work well with Server 2016 Essentials and the Adaptec 8405 although I really didn't mean to be that cutting edge. 20 years ago maybe but now days I just don't like beta testing someone else's problems :)
0
 
PowerEdgeTechConnect With a Mentor IT ConsultantCommented:
It was finalized and approved in 2009 /2010, adopted and mfg beginning in 2011, at which time companies could begin real-world testing. By
then, Windows 8 development was well underway. Systems/chipset mfg then begin BIOS/systems integrations for their next release systems (possibly min 3 years down the road). I don't think VMware supported 4k as of a year ago or so even (I could be wrong - just seem to recollect a slow adoption from them).
0
 
andyalderConnect With a Mentor Commented:
I think you have described 512e back to front; the sector size on these disks is 4K, firmware on them allows you to write in 512 Byte blocks but only by reading the whole 4K sector, modifying 512 bytes of it and then writing the whole 4K again. This RWM algorithm has a big performance hit - two rotations for a single write.
0
 
David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
One essential item is Windows Backup prior to Server 2012 only supported 512N or 512e and not 4Kn and Server 2008R2/Windows 7 will be supported until 2020.  A user replacing a failed disk and wanting to to a backup using the native tools would be really annoyed that they could not get a hard drive for a supported operating system
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2510009/microsoft-support-policy-for-4k-sector-hard-drives-in-windows
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
This is kind of what scares me LOL! Out of all EE only two people have tries 4Kn drives! OMG!
0
 
andyalderConnect With a Mentor Commented:
If you use an HBA rather than RAID controller then you will get far more people admitting to using 4K drives.
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
HBA and not RAID? In Servers? I don't think so. That amazes me even further LOL! 4Kn was supposed to take over the world. You and PowerEdgeTech are the only two that uses them in servers? Talk about slow adoption.....
0
 
andyalderCommented:
"HBA and not RAID? In Servers?"

Ever heard of Digital? They were using software RAID even after Compaq bought them. When asked why they didn't use hardware RAID the answer was to just add another CPU and stick with software RAID.  HP Superdome?, no hardware RAID on that. What about Sun's ZFS on SPARCs? Hardware RAID just gets in the way.

Oh dear I'm talking last century, but what about Windows Storage Spaces? That's up to date and doesn't use hardware RAID.

RAID 5 died in 2009 , RAID 6 is due to die in 2019. Hardware RAID is so fixed it can't keep up, software data redundancy is the way to go. You're so 1988 with your "case for redundant arrays of inexpensive disks"
1
 
andyalderCommented:
Pls forgive my rant, but it was fun.
1
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
It all depends on what you read. Some said RAID 5 died in 2009 but is is still a very good, active supported RAID still used with today's controllers. Its weakness is in drive size not striping. RAID 6 is going to go well beyond 2019. You are talking a totally different class of server

   You're so 1988 with your "case for redundant arrays of inexpensive disks"????? Greek. English translation?
0
 
andyalderCommented:
A Case For RAID white paper was written in 1988. but not by Greeks.
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
So it you were to put together a server today. Windows Server 2016, 25-users. No SQL or data intensive apps. What would you put in for a disk sub-system?
0
 
David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
25 users maximum means you can use server 2016 Essentials to eliminate CAL costs. The disadvantage is that you can't run VM's.  So then get Server 2016 Standard and create 2 VM's one being a DC with the Essentials Role.

Add an additional server and replicate the VM's either using VEEAM backup and replication or the built in replication.

You need to also have a backup server/appliance could be a NAS/Older Server/Client Machine to store your backups and replicate the backups to 2 more locations using VEEAM/Altaro/StorageCraft and either store 1 copy to the cloud or to an external drive that you can move offsite.  This follows the 3-2-1 Rule.

Disk Subsystem: All SSD or use storage spaces with an SSD tier.  Minimum of 2 Physical Disks 1 for OS and one for DATA

Office 365 for Exchange/Sharepoint/Onedrive4Business
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
Thanks David but I am focusing strictly on the disk subsystem. So no RAID controller?. Strictly software mirroring with the onboard SATA ports? Enterprise SSD drives?
0
 
David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
you have to look at the whole package.. but no to software mirroring since an SSD should provide enough IOPS.  
Enterprise SSD, of course.

Single SSD Performance SATA6G
Single SSD 6G SATARAID 5  4 x 10K SAS
RAID 5 4x 10K SASSingle 1 x 10K SAS
1 10K SAS Drive - NO RAID
RAID !GB Write-Back Cache Enabled (battery backed up)
0
 
David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
Since RAID Excels once you up the QUEUE's
SATA 6G NO Raid Queue 512 Thread 8
SATA 6G NO Raid Queue 512 Thread 8RAID 5 4x10K SAS
RAID 5 4x10K SAS
0
 
LockDown32OwnerAuthor Commented:
Sorry David but I am still struggling with what you are trying to suggest. No RAID controller. No fault tolerance. A single SSD for the system and a single SSD for data both connected to the SATA ports on the motherboard?
0
Question has a verified solution.

Are you are experiencing a similar issue? Get a personalized answer when you ask a related question.

Have a better answer? Share it in a comment.

All Courses

From novice to tech pro — start learning today.