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in RAM operation of Oracle.

hi,

for Oracle, any feature/way to move all oracle DB files on RAM , not just logical table / objects?
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marrowyung
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marrowyung
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HuaMin ChenSystem AnalystCommented:
Hi,

There should be no exact way to this. But you can restart OS to clear the RAM.
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slightwv (䄆 Netminder) Commented:
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Tomas Helgi JohannssonCommented:
Hi,

This is a bad practice to setup a whole database on RAM/RAMDISK.
You will loose everything on a power-failure.
Times Ten is an option for Oracle if you want certain tables in memory or pin certain objects as sligthwv points clearly out in his comment

Regards,
     Tomas Helgi
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schwertnerCommented:
Oracle has many possibilities to place tables in the RAM. The most sophisticated option is to use the 12c "In Memory Database". The advantage is that the Optimizer keeps in the RAM only the needed part of the table (used for analyticals - OLAP, column organized, compressed and speed up). The part of the table used for OLTP is kept on disk. When the RAM fails nothing will be loosed - the redo log  files keep all changes and also regularly checkpoints are done.

Another option is the Smart Flash of the Exadata ( the trick is that theflash RAM can be used not only with Exadata and that Oracle 18c will implement some drivers of the Exadata not on Exadata environment)
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schwertnerCommented:
Yes, the OS and Oracle have the possibility to place whole Oracle Data Files in the RAM. To use this possibility simply create RAM files - these are files placed in the RAM, not on the disk drives. But it is risky old approach. Nowadays "In Memory Database" is the sophisticated solution, because it uses advanced columnar compression and a bunch of other methods to speed up the processing, including automatic indexing of PART of the table ...
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
Tomas,

"This is a bad practice to setup a whole database on RAM/RAMDISK.
You will loose everything on a power-failure"

What if hardware now can capable for this ? persistent memory e.g. from HP or Intel ?

schwertner,

"Oracle has many possibilities to place tables in the RAM. The most sophisticated option is to use the 12c "In Memory Database". "

yeah, a lot of DB can do it too like MariaDB.

but it is not what I want, I want sth even faster ! so I ask the whole DB binary in RAM, totally operate in RAM.

" The part of the table used for OLTP is kept on disk. When the RAM fails nothing will be loosed - the redo log  files keep all changes and also regularly checkpoints are done.
"
nice to know .

"Yes, the OS and Oracle have the possibility to place whole Oracle Data Files in the RAM.

but not the whole oracle system, right ?
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HuaMin ChenSystem AnalystCommented:
RAM is just the buffer and is NOT for REAL storage of your database!
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
HuaMin Chen,

I understand, but I am check a solution for it. Imagine if this can happen and working well , I don't think monogo is a good reason to use except it is free!
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HuaMin ChenSystem AnalystCommented:
For free DB, you can try MySQL, Postgresql. But really Ram is not the way for storage!
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
HuaMin Chen,


I knew, but you know, how a lot more vendor release Hardware which the RAM can will hold data even server turn off!

I know a DB can do this but it is an appliance.
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
slightwv,

the link seems saying only DB logical object but not the whole DB system store and operation in RAM and it seems only OLAP operation in RAM, right?
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
if you want speed and can afford it, go for a supercluster:
https://www.oracle.com/engineered-systems/supercluster/supercluster-m8/index.html

it's got an all in-memory, if you can afford it feature
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
is it a new thing? belongs to Oracle 18c ? has to buy the full rack ?


MS SQL already has one , just 2 U server !  can also make use of their windows 2016 SSD data storage management feature (oracle ASM) at no additional cost.

"it's got an all in-memory"

in all memory means everything in RAM and no disk any more ?
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
off course it has disks

you really have no idea how oracle works, don't you ?
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"you really have no idea how oracle works, don't you ?"

no. by that mean, I found out sth in other product and I want to know if Oracle offer that too.

"off course it has disks"

seems the same thing as the other one .
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slightwv (䄆 Netminder) Commented:
>>windows 2016 SSD data storage management feature (oracle ASM) at no additional cost.

Oracle ASM is free.

>>how a lot more vendor release Hardware which the RAM can will hold data even server turn off!

Wouldn't that be comparable to SSD?

>>What if hardware now can capable for this ? persistent memory e.g. from HP or Intel ?

What about a server reboot from an OS upgrade/patch/???
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schwertnerCommented:
Placing files in RAM is very naïve idea. Especially binary executabls. Wnen Table data comes to RAM there are many open questions and possible solutions. The first question is which columns and which columns. The next question is how to compress the data. The third question I if the processor has special features to make long column oriented selects with a few tacts.
The mechanical placement of files in the RAM is uneficient approach nowadays - looking at the large volumes of data. This was the last resort 15 years ago, but not now.

About the Oracle SPARK supercluster. I have worked with 2 supercluster on Solaris 10. This was full disaster. My Dell laptop works 2 times faster with the same software, same version of Oracle. And on the "Super"cluster was installed .... 2 node RAC. The update of this 2 monsters was very expensive. After 3 years unsuccessful work both installations were .... decommissioned.  This was the biggest  Oracle disaster I have seen ...
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
slightwv ,

"Oracle ASM is free."

if we have enterprise license ? my Oracle master also say ASM need cost.

But MS SSD is for everything, not just for database.

"Wouldn't that be comparable to SSD?"

RAM is much faster than SSD, right ?

schwertner,

"About the Oracle SPARK supercluster. I have worked with 2 supercluster on Solaris 10. This was full disaster.

haAHAHA

"The update of this 2 monsters was very expensive. "

will it be oracle don't know how to tell you upgrade that one ?? quite impossible, right ?

any why UPGRADE is expensive? upgrade what ? HW and SW ?

"After 3 years unsuccessful work both installations were .... decommissioned."

bought it but no instruction on how to install it ?

all you guys are telling me is oracle only can move table object to RAM but a lot of other DB can do it too.

and what is the link to download RAM file/disk ? it is not offical for oracle, right?
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slightwv (䄆 Netminder) Commented:
>>if we have enterprise license ? my Oracle master also say ASM need cost.

I can only go by what is published:
https://docs.oracle.com/en/database/oracle/oracle-database/12.2/dblic/Licensing-Information.html#GUID-B6113390-9586-46D7-9008-DCC9EDA45AB4

Oracle Automatic Storage Management (Oracle ASM)

Oracle ASM is free to use with all Oracle databases and Oracle ACFS file systems.

>>RAM is much faster than SSD, right ?

RAM that persists across a shutdown/crash?  You mentioned that technology exists.  I have to take your word for it.
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schwertnerCommented:
Dear marrowyung,

SPARC supercluster has Solaris virtual machines (named zones). Every zone need to be updated. There iz ZFS memory. It has software that need update. There is Eaxadata (3-14 cells). Every cell has 2 Zeon processors under Linux. They also need update. This can be done only by experienced professional. This has to be done at least 2 times yearly, otherwise the company will not be supported by Oracle.

The horible details could be read here:

https://www.cio.com/article/2376980/enterprise-software/experts--avoid-big-mistakes-with-oracle-s-exadata.html

http://houseofbrick.com/oracle-database-appliance-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/
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schwertnerCommented:
Dear marrowyung,

The 2 SPARK Supercluster and 3 Exalogics were installed by Oracle Support. The support (update) was done by Oracle Support. The installation of Oracle 11g (RAC, ASM) was done by Oracle support.
After 2 years the situation was so bad, that Oracle Support has attached permanently 2 employees to help (the development of an application).

I am working with Oracle since 1997, but haven't seen such disaster. The CIO has left the company, I do not know the details, but guess ...
Read  the articles!
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schwertnerCommented:
Dear marrowyung,

The update of SPARC supercluster is done 4 days from 2 Oracle Support employees. Oracle earns daily 1600 Euro (without the European VAT - 19% in Germany). So every employee costs 1900 Euro daily. Multiply this by 8 and pay this 2 times yearly. Of course if your company earns enough bucks, this isn't major problem ...
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
slightw,

"RAM that persists across a shutdown/crash?"

yeah, I understood what you say but new RAM comes across, e.g.  intel optane memory, there are another ! HP has a server built in that way!

you know there is an applicant that install with that HP box, SQL server 2017 and SUSE linux with that feature supported, all SQL server binary store/stay in RAM. super fast operation !


schwertner,

"his has to be done at least 2 times yearly, otherwise the company will not be supported by Oracle."

WTF !!?? not supported by Oracle ????? just because of this?????? that's why MS SQL AOG start talked by a lot of company ,especially e-commerce company and online gaming company, which operate 24x7 !

MS SQL never got into trouble! might be that oracle thing is broke into too much tier and too complex and MS SQL much simple. And oracle licensing model is not that good ! everyone here scares that !

"The update of SPARC supercluster is done 4 days from 2 Oracle Support employees. "

so MUST pay them to do it or Oracle not going to support as well ?

"I am working with Oracle since 1997, but haven't seen such disaster. The CIO has left the company,"

is it the first SUPERCLUSTER they sold to customer ? why there seems not formal procedure for it?
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
this link

"https://www.cio.com/article/2376980/enterprise-software/experts--avoid-big-mistakes-with-oracle-s-exadata.html
"
 said:

Simply moving workloads over to Exadata will typically result in a three-times performance improvement

amazing! but too expensive too ? MS SQL one I mentioned above  offer 4 x times increase in OLAP performance !

is exadata horizontal scale out ? they have dedicated storage of each node and each node is a clone of other nodes ? so read only and write only scale out possible in Exadata? how many nodes at max exadata support ?
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
sometimes you don't need an exadata for performance

on Exadata: 23 hours to complete a task
Same task, but tuned, on an 8 core AMD machine: 3 secs, or on my laptop: 5 secs
The tuned task on the exadata: .03 secs

it mostly depends on the level of the developer
it's amazing how inituitive some developers can be at writing such code
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"sometimes you don't need an exadata for performance"

yeah, the link also said that!  more CPU and SSD also can do the job.

from DB point of view, tune it by simple skill also good ! can be extremely easy

"on Exadata: 23 hours to complete a task"

what tasks need 23 hours to finish ? report data gathering ?

"it mostly depends on the level of the developer
it's amazing how inituitive some developers can be at writing such code"

here always happen! now when you go to an interview! some very smart program lead will ask you if you have a query CAN'T change, what can you do the increase the performance, I (of course) said fine tune index! THEY said yes ! (of course, what else? only consider scale out at that time already too late ! so we keep scale out until company running out of cash just because developer now don't tune their queries ?)

everyone in that meeting room without that knowledge can hear their co worker is B.S.ing! everyone know it is because the developer is very lazy ! they don't even want to (if no other choice) pass to very experience DBA to fix it for them..

why queries can't tune ! it is true until it is a third party application written by other company, who can discontinue the support any time if you touch their code !

in some western company I work with, they have a practice to PUSH the tuning part to DBA instead of programmer! is a VERY BAD idea as how can 1 x DBA fix the shit from ALL developers !  

they will think in this way ! and they relies on DBA to find out root cause! not very efficient man !
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
fine tune index ? never done that.
adding an index is about .1% of what possible solutions there is to tune a query

push the tuning part to DBA a bad idea ?
really ?

exactly what we do here.
And we absolutely love bad developers.  Especially the very intuitive ones who produce such unimaginably bad code that still produces good results, only problem, its not fast

A bad developer like that, if not too old, is very inventive.
He (or she) has spent lots of time in producing code like that.  They actually boast after achieving.
Educating such people is fun.

on dead momemts i tune querries too
current query is 580 lines  and the execution plan is 537 lines
takes a little while to optimize something like that.
And a document with clear explanations has to be created on the why and how.

1 DBA can usually fix shit from 20 or so developers
if the developer is educated on the why and how, bad code diminishes

the nice thing is, people change work, so we get new bad ones in again :)
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
PUSH ?
no, they rely on an experienced DBA to educating the developers
if it's only one way, then it doesn't work

fwiw, i work in that some western company
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
fwiw, the image i get
your company is relying on someone with little or no knowledge of oracle to do an oracle project ...
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"Educating such people is fun."

yeah !!

"adding an index is about .1% of what possible solutions there is to tune a query"

yes !

"if the developer is educated on the why and how, bad code diminishes"
what if they still doing it  ?

"no, they rely on an experienced DBA to educating the developers
if it's only one way, then it doesn't work"

I can understand you come form this kind of background as I can see ! it is not working here!

Someone got fired because they don't fix their shit !  you like that then keep goes on ! why DBA has to coach them ? and what if they instructed to NOT LISTEN to that DBA?

ok, good idea ! you write shit and you don't clean that up, and you think it is good and making sense?

developer then do very little ! just copy code from web and make it works ! why it is slow ??? ask DBA.  you think it is good ?

"your company is relying on someone with little or no knowledge of oracle to do an oracle project
"
you are referring to me.... and I answer is, i am the find going to find out which DB to go other than Oracle, and when it really happens, a lot of people will come and do it together.

happy ?
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"no, they rely on an experienced DBA to educating the developers"

but not experienced SENIOR developers to educate their team, then it is amazing ! you can do it but not here.

one thing sir, do you think development team need someone else NOT their team to coach them how to work and that DBA work better than them is making any sense ?

I don't think so, here developer like that will get a warning letter ! or fire! we find out the bottleneck for them and at most give suggestion!  

some time if you fix the code for them they can say this is NOT the LOGIC we want ! then why don't they fix it for themselves?

some case here is the team lead, once found out their developer has no such knowledge, will say why don't you go back to school and study again ! oh yeah. teacher didn't coach them how to tune as teacher didn't know either......
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
fwiw,

how about that, we ask developers to fix DB's issue better than a DBA, are we overloading them ?

and later on we say we EXPECT this to happen well, is it good ?


I tried that before if we ask a very senior developer to look at why DB is slow( play them of course), they will keep saying they don't know ? should we fire them all ?
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
i didn't say we don't have experienced developers
I never use SENIOR.
in my vocabulary that means "somewhat older", doesn't mean experienced

i know of people who started their first job as a senior at age 22.
he thought senior means "mister"

do you know where that bad developer went after he got fired ?
always good to know where bad developers go ... i get a percent if I can pass new customers to some tuning experts ... :)
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"i didn't say we don't have experienced developers
I never use SENIOR.
in my vocabulary that means "somewhat older", doesn't mean experienced

whatever, I am talking about the logic but our world is diff man !

"do you know where that bad developer went after he got fired ?"

OTHER company ... :)::):)  but one thing true now is , even job hunter know the answer BUT the developer didn't know ! we are previous generation already !!!

in MS SQL, I just few click, fxxxing troublemaker comes out !

" i get a percent if I can pass new customers to some tuning experts ... :)"

bring them to me if they need MS SQL guys ...... ):):):):

you know I just found what MySQL can't do but MariaDB can do !! oracle surely will kill MySQL ! but MariaDB still exists !! why oracle buy MySQL then? any idea?  MySQL really doesn't change much !

another MySQL -> MariaDB still here. I can't figure it out !

other similiar deal is MS buy githubs but gitlab comes up !! why buy it ! one answer could be MS might be using code there to REBUILD windows 10 and Windows server but they are thinking WHAT IF other smart people figure it out ??? if MS buy it MS will have no law issue.

FYI, people here hate oracle because of the pricing model !! and oracle missed the horizontal scale out capability ! DB world changed a lot and dynamically !
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Geert GOracle dbaCommented:
bring them to you for mssql ?
i think i know a few better mssql experts ... anyway, you're too busy with this project
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
"i think i know a few better mssql experts ... anyway, you're too busy with this project"

ahhah, you know how to joke, near the close of this comparsion project.

tks for your suggestion anyway.
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slightwv (䄆 Netminder) Commented:
>> am the find going to find out which DB to go other than Oracle, and when it really happens, a lot of people will come and do it together

Across other questions you mentioned that you will pay for the migration and experts to come in and help rewrite code, etc...

How many years of Oracle licensing can you pay for with the amount of money you will spend on the migration?
At the end of the day, will the move really buy you anything?

You mention tuning:  Tuning Oracle isn't the same as tuning other databases.  It will cost a lot to bring in the necessary skills over the long term until current staff become experts in the new platform.

I know Oracle and have been using it for 25+ years.  Throw me into a SQL Server/DB2 project and I'm starting over and have to learn everything all over again.

I'm not sure you are taking the total cost of ownership (TCO) into account.

I'm also not sure your product comparison will be fair since it is pretty obvious you, and your company, dislike Oracle.

Making a decision based on emotion usually results in a bad decision.
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schwertnerCommented:
O... yehhhh! What a funny discussion!
One of my professors said: "Only simple people think that there are simple things!"
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
schwertner,

"One of my professors said: "Only simple people think that there are simple things!""

yeah.... or people like to make stuff complex ! ahahaaahhah

slightwv,

"Across other questions you mentioned that you will pay for the migration and experts to come in and help rewrite code, etc..."

yeah, decision here change from time to time and senior management may hear sth else from friends and just follow them.

we may do it ourselves but I already have attunity and ispirer on my list, it seems they are quite good on data transfer and code rewrite , the rest of the tier will relies on other team.

also we probably not change at all ! change it doesn't worth so much effort !

"You mention tuning:  Tuning Oracle isn't the same as tuning other databases.  It will cost a lot to bring in the necessary skills over the long term until current staff become experts in the new platform."

yeah, is a long terms learning process.

but one thing, what i know is the one who is very good on MS SQL tuning do not have tuning experience on other DB.

"I know Oracle and have been using it for 25+ years.  Throw me into a SQL Server/DB2 project and I'm starting over and have to learn everything all over again.
"
exactly !!

"I'm also not sure your product comparison will be fair since it is pretty obvious you, and your company, dislike Oracle."

that;s why I come here and get all your idea! I can't guess myself ! you all know it.

but what I can say is, MS SQL is really good ! I search NIST Vulnerabilities database, MS SQL has 0 Vulnerabilities during last 3 years where Oracle has 50!  WAH!!!

Oracle pricing model is expensive but if no choice, we stay with oracle! we have enterprise license !  

one thing I don't understand is , why move code from Oracle application server to weblogic, code doesn't work .

"Making a decision based on emotion usually results in a bad decision"

I draw a excel chart to compare them one by one , not in emotion, no one will allow this kind of thing here at all.

but one thing, by past experience, open source really not good ! we have a MySQL instance installed by an Oracle recommended vendor, need reboot every week !! while MS SQL never reboot.
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
by this, I can understand oracle can't move all binary to RAM , but just in memory table, right?
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marrowyungSenior Technical architecture (Data)Author Commented:
tks
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