Not Technical question - some Advice for Job

Hi, Any one help for this really appriciate

My question is :
I have reported to IS (Information System manager)
But after my manager left ,management force report to IT manager.
IT manager is good with Networking ,But he have no experience with
ERP,Business Intelligence and Programming experience.
I understand work with him i will get very dificult situation.
so I need to confence HR to why i can't report to IT Manager.
Any idea much appriciated.
My working as a BI/Develeoper
LVL 2
lankapalaAsked:
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Rob HutchinsonDesktop SupportCommented:
Do not conference HR, just do your job; and deal with it--until they replace that manager or until he learns his job.
HR will not help you, but contacting them will just create problems for yourself and that manager.
Or...find another job.
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yo_beeDirector of Information TechnologyCommented:
What do you want to say to HR and hope to get out of this?
I think the IT Manager is not capable of managing the department and I want his job

That's not to professional and that is coming from someone that does Manage an IT for a company.  I would rather see my guys come to me and say we are missing something here and I have a solution.  People like solution people.  Do not bash your new boss.  They offered him the job for a reason.  It's not a good idea to let management think you do not like your boss.  It will get back to him for sure.
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PortletPaulEE Topic AdvisorCommented:
Give it some time first. I'm reasonably confident that someone with a networking background still knows that ERP/Programming and BI are needed by the enterprise. S/he may not be an expert in those fields but managers don't need to be expert in every specialty that they manage.

As you haven't reported to that person in that past, you don't know how that new manager will work with you - yet.

Change takes time, and both the new manger - and YOU - need to accept that some change in behaviour will be needed.
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N8iveITCommented:
Reading heavily between the lines and making some assumptions ... Your new manager is a technical manager and is good at hardware, networking and making applications run but doesn't understand programming or how the programs work.

Assuming both statements above are true but let's add a few more things to the possibilities (again, I'm reading between the lines):
1. Rob is right; I wouldn't involve HR unless there is a VERY valid reason to engage HR.
2. Rob is also right; just do your job.
3. Both Rob and Yo_Bee have good points; you might come across as wanting the job and you do need to "deal with it".

However, it might be your new "technical" manager doesn't enjoy having a developer reporting to him any more than you enjoy reporting to a non-developer.

Is it possible to go to lunch and get to know him? If he isn't enjoying this new arrangement either (especially if it is permanent, he is busy and they gave him more responsibility for the same or not much of a pay increase), you may end up with some latitude and more ability to manage yourself (and possibly others).

My advice:
1. What Rob and Yo_Bee said ... especially what PortletPaul said!
2. Get to know him before writing him off. In my experience, some of the people I initially struggled with are the ones I ended up becoming close friends with ...
3. He may be in a bind and welcome some help / sharing of responsibilities (again, especially if it is permanent, he is busy and they gave him more responsibility for the same or not much of a pay increase)

If working together is NOT possible then simply not liking him and engaging HR will only shorten your career at your current employer ... which means, find a new job or, if he is truly incompetent, wait it out for the eventual replacement.
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
Couple of brutally honest knee-jerk reactions..
  • Based on your grammar skills and lack of details I'm guessing you're a very junior programmer, which would imply that you'd be over your head trying to engage in a confrontation with a new manager and HR, which would be considered a Career Limiting Move.
  • A forced confrontation may also give an impression of 'it's either him or me', and companies will generally keep the manager and let go of the employee.
  • The business world will often find itself with managers that do not fully understand the technical aspects of every one of their direct reports, and that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you can function independently and the manager supports you when needed.

A good manager can mange more than just his previous area of technical expertise before moving over to management.

So without repeating the excellent comments above, my advice to you is to keep your head down, be very good at your job, and let the management of your company work this situation out.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Thank you very much for all adviced , it's really appreciated. But my situation is different, I need some proof only , if any one can give good example highly appropriated.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Again I'm working at head down and I'm really really good at my work. But this time I need some proofs , if I need advice I'm asking advice, i need Valid proofs
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yo_beeDirector of Information TechnologyCommented:
What are you looking to do with this proof?

As everyone already stated this is a bad idea and will only make your life a living hell. This is your boss you are looking to throw under the bus.   Not a good idea.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Also I'm not looking for take his job I'm looking for report another managers
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yo_beeDirector of Information TechnologyCommented:
Still not a good idea to even request this.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
As I said my situation is different
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PortletPaulEE Topic AdvisorCommented:
Proof of what?
Good example of what?

How is your situation different?

If you are unable to explain it to us how will you explain it to the "other managers"?

We are offering you DECADES of experience gained in multiple counties and a wide diversity of enterprises.

Yet we are all telling you much the same thing.

NB:
If you haven't revealed something too private to mention then perhaps you should be speaking to a lawyer.

If there is something illegal involved - AND - your organization has a "whistleblower" policy; THEN follow the provisions of that policy

If there is something illegal involved - AND - your organization DOES NOT have a "whistleblower" policy; THEN  I would be considering another job somewhere else (keeping my intentions to myself until I have something lined-up).
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yo_beeDirector of Information TechnologyCommented:
Not everyone likes the superior and they have to deal with it our decide to leave.  
Are you fearful that you will not be recognized because you think he has no idea what good programing vs bad programing looks like.
I personally never seen someone go to HR and say I do not like reporting to my manager, can you please assign me a new one.


I think you are in a situation that has one option for you being happy.  
Resign and find a place that you like your manager and if that does not work find another one and another one...........
Or you can put on your big boy pants  and do what thousands of other do.  Go to work, do a good job and hope that it gets recognized.  
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Rob HutchinsonDesktop SupportCommented:
What PortletPaul said.

If you are not willing to share more details to make your question clearer, then it's extremely difficult to give you solid advice.
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BillDLCommented:
You want "proof"?

I have had a few jobs in non-IT environments where the shift managers I reported to were such absolute imbeciles that they couldn't run a bath, let alone a shift, however I can assure you that "talking to HR" about such matters will not help you in any way.
 
In one of those jobs in a fast-paced distribution warehouse I was the shift supervisor.  I was supposed to be the ass-kicker, checker, and motivator while the manager was supposed to be the "admin" guy.  Unfortunately he was so illiterate that he was incapable of writing a memo, using the spreadsheet to monitor absences, analyse performance figures, generate invoices, or any other admin function.  I ended up being the ass-kicker, motivator, AND admin guy.  While he sat twiddling on his mobile phone for most of the shift earning management wages, I was doing the manager's and supervisor's job for only supervisor's wages.  I discussed this frequently with him and he only shrugged his shoulders.

At my next employee appraisal meeting with HR I happened to mention this and I can assure you that this went completely against me.  The "manager" made my life a misery and HR gave me a terrible performance review.  That would have continued until the "manager" or HR found a reason to fire me.  I could feel it in the air every time I went into work for several months after that. I was terrified of making even the smallest mistake.  I was ultimately forced to set up a sting with the security director which led to him being caught red-handed stealing goods and being fired, and I then immediately found another job.  I hadn't realised at the time that all of them except the security director were members of different Masonic lodges and stuck together.

What you have to remember is that somebody twice above you chose him.  By criticising your immediate manager you are criticising the choice made by the person above him who selected him.  It's like me walking into your house and saying "Good God, who chose this awful colour scheme?  The pattern on the carpet makes me dizzy".  It doesn't go down very well.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Very very good advice. I will really really appreciated , but I still didn't get my answer. My question is how I proofs IT technical manager not good for work with programmers , ERP and BI work . If any comments much appreciated. All above advices is very good lesson for my life. Thanks again.
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BillDLCommented:
Give him time.  If he is no good he will fail without you digging for "proof".
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
When I'm reading the all advices, I can't believe how nice all of you are.
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PortletPaulEE Topic AdvisorCommented:
>>"My question is how I proofs IT technical manager not good for work with programmers , ERP and BI work "

I do NOT believe this can be proved.
Even if I agreed it was typical that "IT Technical manager" could not work well with "programmers, ERP and BI"  (which I do NOT believe) any further discussion would HAVE to include knowledge of the particular person.  

I have worked for aeronautical engineers who were brilliant and inspiring managers. I have also worked for an Accountant & MBA's who was loathsome as a manager. It is the person - not their background specialization(s) - that matters here.

Nothing will persuade me that a specialist in networking is incapable of understanding a need for ERP (how on earth will you survive without the GL?). That person would have to be from a distant planet not to know you need (some) BI and (some) programming skills to maintain an IT department. It is not your job to run the department, you may not like the person, you might not like the decisions s/he takes. If it so bad you have the right to work elsewhere.

Otherwise, put your head down, do an excellent job, supply support to your new manager. Work WITH him/her, not against him/her - or leave.

But you won't find a "proof" that you wanting from me.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Thanks
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N8iveITCommented:
The only proof for that is in the facts; facts you may already have and facts you may accumulate based on time and experience with him.

If he asks you to write a program in C++ but BI uses something else, that's proof. If he asks you to login and use ERP in a non-ethical way or asks for something which is obviously either not a feature or totally impossible to do if he knew the system, there's more proof.

There is no simple, across-the-board way to prove incompetence. Incompetence is usually something a person proves to others all by themselves. It's like the old adage; typically, people don't fire other people, people usually fire themselves.

I find it odd; all the while you are asking for more information from us, you are being very vague on why your situation is "different."

Also, a thought which has kept crossing my mind; EE is worldwide and open to anyone. If he stumbles across this post and can piece it together, he may be incompetent at application development / BI / ERP but he probably can connect these dots ...
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
I think I will manage this and close this
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N8iveITCommented:
... and if he is good at being technical, you are posting these on work time with work equipment, logs will line up with time spent on the EE website ... just some thoughts for you to consider. Sometimes, humans become so focused we actually end up missing some obvious clues and tell on ourselves.

Ultimately, it doesn't sound like a fun work environment and I do wish you the best.
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N8iveITCommented:
Thank-you but there is a lot of good and timeless career advice posted here by many different people for everyone to consider.
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
^^^ Then you should have split points across all experts that helped you, or at least endorsed all of these comments, instead of awarding all points to a single comment.

Good luck.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Yes,That's true my mistake
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N8iveITCommented:
I agree with Jim Horn ... I did a small part, not all of it by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

That was the intent of my most recent post ... to be more direct, if at all possible, please spread out the points.

Everyone Else: If it is possible for me to spread out awarded points, that is new to me. Let me know how and I will do so. I only thought the author could do so.
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
How to do that now
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N8iveITCommented:
I don't know for sure ... can anyone assist him with spreading the points?
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
I think you can click the 'Report this question' link and ask for somebody to open it up for a regrade.

>that is new to me.
No worries.  We all have to figure this place out, and there has been endless debate over what kind of new-guy <insert finger quotes here> training <end quote> we should inflict on people.  Don't worry about it, and thanks for following up.
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
btw Along these lines Stack Overflow has a community called The Workplace that makes for some fascinating reading..
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N8iveITCommented:
@Jim - Thank-you. My account has been around for awhile (2003) but my participation has only been active in the last several months. By account age, I'm not a rookie but by activity as an "answerer", I am a rookie (my first solution was in April, 2018) ... thanks again! I'm not in IT as much anymore but am using EE to stay active and relevant ... in essence, I'm "having fun" with EE based on 25+ years of experience. Been a lot of places, know a lot of people and am sharing where I can (and when I have time to do so).
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
Wait a minute.  The fork in the road.  Ha, I get it..
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N8iveITCommented:
I've had that picture for quite awhile, have really liked it and decided to use it for my picture ...
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Jim HornMicrosoft SQL Server Developer, Architect, and AuthorCommented:
This is about seven miles northeast of my place - 'Spoonbridge and Cherry' at the Walker Art Center, with downtown Minneapolis, Minnesota in the background. spoonbridge-and-cherry.jpg
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lankapalaAuthor Commented:
Anyway i achieved,What i needed. All advice is very good and good for life time.
But not my question.
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